Brahms Symphony No.4, range of clarinets in C

[Notenschreiber]

The range of the clarinets in c ends (normally) with the e under the system. Brahms wrote an e flat for the clarinet in c in the third movement of his 4th symphony.
Does anybody knows more about that discrepance?

[steltz]

It's not really a discrepancy; when we do C transposition we use B-flat clarinet (usually), and this becomes a low F, which is within range. Brahms' clarinetists must have done the same, since as far as i know, they didn't make instruments with low Ebs then, though I could be wrong on that point. At least I haven't seen any historical instruments from that period with low Ebs.

[coulonnus]

The E's flat at meas. 285-287 of the clarinet part are played by the Bassons at p.72 of the full score edited by Simrock, 1886!

[Notenschreiber]

You mean p.71? Yes, indeed. The Eb´s are in the clarinets in the parts of the Gal edition. Perhaps an error?

[coulonnus]

You mean p.71?

Yeah, it depends if you watch the printed page number or that shown by your pdf viewer. we should standardise this in our forums!

[Notenschreiber]

In the pocket score of the symphony, published as Edition Eulenburg 447, Berlin, Februar 1927 the critical two measures are also only in the bassoons!

[steltz]

Then I guess the question is why did Gal add the reinforcement? Was he known for adding things into his editions generally?

[Notenschreiber]

I think i can clarify the situation now. There is a new "Brahms Gesamtausgabe", the 4th volume with Brahms´symphony No.4 has appeared 2011 in Munich, Henle Verlag. Editor is Robert Pascall. In this edition the discussed measures are only in the bassoons, like in the first edition by Simrock. In the critical report we can read, that the autograph of Brahms has these two measures also only in the bassoons, but there is an entry by pencil of Brahms fortifying the notes by the clarinets. The autograph has been used for some of the first performances and Pascall assumes, that Brahms conducted among others a performance with clarinets in Bb, and in that case the fortification is possible. Remains the question, why Gal kept the fortification by clarinets also in case of clarinets in C. Here Pascall conjectured, that the clarinetists should hold the bell of the clarinet between their knees, thereby making it possible to produce the low E flat.

[Cigleris]

This is an old thread but couldn't help responding. The discussion about reinforcing that bar/measure with the low Eb on C clarinet is interesting. As a professional clarinettist i have performed the Symphony on a few occasions and have always transposed the third Movt on A clarinet which again puts it well within the range. This is purely for the fact that the other movts are A clarinet and picking up a cold Bb for one movt is pointless. I wonder if this was the case when Brahms corrected his autograph? There were full boehm clarinets in A, Bb and C in that period but Oehler system didn't as far as I'm aware. A low Eb must have been possible in Germany and Austria though as they do crop up occasionally in Mahler.