Bruckner 3

[amati1588]

Does anyone know if their will be other versions of the Symphony uploaded? Possibly the 1887 version Leopold Nowak with matching OrchestralParts?

[madcapellan]

The Nowak editions are the good ones (the Bruckner Gesamtausgabe), but were published starting in 1951. The site has 1981 listed as the first published date for the 1877 version of the Third. All of them are possibly PD in Canada, since Bruckner died in 1896, although most of the versions probably weren't published until the Nowak editions, and he died in 1991. If they count as Urtext, then they'd be alright, but it could be up to 30 years if they're not. At any rate, the US's copyright in perpetuity means that it'll be 60-70 years before they could appear on this site. With Haas's work on the Third apparently lost, I'm not sure how many versions of the Third are eligible to be uploaded to this site. I'm not sure why so many versions of that Symphony were necessary either, but that's another discussion.

I believe the parts for these are rental only, and naturally quite expensive. The version from the Orchestral Music Library is all you're going to be able to find unless you're rich.

[amati1588]

I don't believe they're rental only. I just got off the phone with Kalmus, and they are available for purchase. And they're moderately priced and not expensive, I just want the Violin 1 part is my main concern, there's quite the differences and I believe the 8th and 7th are Nowak parts on imslp.

[amati1588]

Oh and I'm in the US to, and the Stravinsky Forum I will post because its an entirely different conversation..

[vinteuil]

I think that OM actually reprinted the Kalmus, so did you make it clear that that they have the version that you want?

Of course, if you get it, then please upload!

[amati1588]

Yes, and also as well one can very well browse their entire catalog at ones convenience. Of couse I will need instructions on the upload bitty.

[madcapellan]

Alright, it's obvious you have absolutely no idea about the multitude of versions of Bruckner symphonies out there. Let me state it again, none of the Nowak versions are PD in the United States. They were only published starting in 1951, which means the absolute earliest any of them will be PD in the US is 2047. And if you'd look carefully at the Kalmus site, you'd notice that they do not offer a single Nowak edition, nor are any of the parts on here from one of his versions (and this is stated clearly on each page).

Perhaps you are confusing Nowak with Robert Haas, the earlier editor of Bruckner's works whose versions are mostly if not all PD by now and are found in the Dover scores and Kalmus parts. Nowak is the one who prepared the critical editions after Haas' death.

There are no less than five separate versions currently in print of the Third Symphony. Not one of them is from 1887, so I'm not sure which version you're looking for. The three Nowak editions are from 1873, 1877, and 1889. The two PD versions offered by Kalmus are the 1878 Oeser version, and the 1889/90 Schalk-Rättig version, of which the latter is "more popular". These two version are considered less authentic because they contain unsanctioned edits from people other than Bruckner. If it's the 1889-90 version you're looking for, you might as well save your money and download the copy that's already on here. If you are truly looking for a Nowak version, I can only quote from the Bruckner Gesamtausgabe website:

"Performance material for hire"

[amati1588]

I beg your pardon of the Multitude Versions, there is correct me if I'm "Wrong" but obviosly you have you dates screwed up pal$. There is 3 Versions 1871, 1877 and the Rattig/Schalk version "the version which in incorrect and has material that is highly contreversial due to the FACT it reflects nothing of that Bruckner wished.." If I stated 1887, I fat fingered some number due to typing to fast on the latest iPhone which is much smaller in size than the one previos. Bruckner was always if not never satisfied with a work, thusly revising these constant, the 1877 one is the version that Bruckner himself took to Wagner the "famous unreachable poetic artist" and hence the conversation they had among the many pint of ale/bitter or what ever choise of "Boose" they choose to get soused with Bruckner arrive bacin Vienna with forgeting which Symphony he had like. The Second or the 3rd, thus "Bruckner the Trumpet" sent a telegram to Wagner asking which was it the one with the Trumpet at the beggining. To me which 1877 is the only version My Colleagues and I find that true of Bruckners Hand. I am going to save my breath on analytical mumbo jumbo because evidentally you sir have, and can not comprehend such simple premise. So in fruitful observation beist so quick to judge one by a tincy "fatal typo" because obviously you have no Idea where I've studied music, or what one does for a profession.

[amati1588]

You are now in "D.B" status...

[amati1588]

1874 version, represents, accordingly to Bruckner, "a considerable improvement of the first version". Unpublished and unrecorded.
1876 version, is the result of a rhythmic revision; only the Adagio of this version has been published so far.

1877 version, composed 1876-77. The Wagner quotations are suppressed, the Finale is shortened and the Scherzo gets a new ending. First performance in Vienna on 16th December 1877, under Bruckner's direction. The First Edition was published in 1880, by Rättig, with some small differences from the autograph of the 1877 version, like the elimination of the coda of the Scherzo. (In fact the Coda is marked "not to be printed" in the autograph.) There is no surviving Haas edition of this symphony, and the first critical edition for the Bruckner Society was prepared by Oeser in 1950. Oeser edition is a mixture of the 1877 version and the 1880 edition, for it's based on the autograph score, but follows the printed score by leaving off the coda of the Scherzo. The Nowak edition of the 1877 version (incorporating the coda of the Scherzo) appeared in 1981 and has since then become the most favoured edition of the work.

1888/89 version is a revision made with the help of Franz Schalk during the years 1888-89. The work was further shortened, and the Coda of the Scherzo dropped again. Changes in the orchestration modified the whole climate of the work, bringing it closer to the sound world of the last symphonies. This version was published with some modifications by Rättig in 1890 (Second Edition). First performed on December 21st 1890 by the VPO under Hans Richter. The critical edition of this version is Nowak's [1959]. Before the recent prominence of the 1877 version, it was the most played version.

If you clearly read that "Oeser" revised this whilst under the Bruckner Society in 1950, which has a mixture of the 1877/1880v's. So..

[amati1588]

I'll put this in layterms something gender nuetral so you'll understand this.. There were 3 main revisions when Bruckner was living, until people started messing around with them.. So here we are again.

[pml]

Amati1588,

in case you haven't read the rules for this forum, please read this post. Your language is inappropriate and rude: consider this a first and final warning that I will delete your posts if I see the same attitude displayed again.

It is confusing that the years cited on Nowak's editions correspond to the date of Bruckner's revisions to his scores in his, i.e. Bruckner's, lifetime — not Nowak's. Leopold Nowak lived from 1904 to 1991 and his work – spanning 1951 to 1981 – is under copyright in the US, so if uploaded here will be subject to being blocked. Owing to the nature of his reconstruction of Bruckner's works it is unlikely the Urtext rule would apply.

Regards, Philip

[amati1588]

Thanks Phillip.

[madcapellan]

So I'm the one with the dates screwed up when you've stated there are 1871 and 1887 versions of the Third Symphony which don't actually exist. And it's the 1873 version Bruckner showed to Wagner, not the 1877 version. The copy he sent to Wagner was the main source for that version.

I stated nothing in my previous post that was untrue. There are indeed five versions of the Third Symphony in print, with apparently two others still unpublished. All of the information you could want to know about the various versions can be found at http://www.mwv.at/, or a number of other sites dedicated to this question that can be found from Bruckner's wikipedia page. Maybe next time you'll get your facts straight before you take four posts to show everyone your lack of intelligence.

[KGill]

Did you read the other part of Pml's post? That goes for everyone on this forum - insulting language will not be tolerated.