Categorizing pieces not by spelled out numbers

[daphnis]

I have a suggestion for categorization of pieces under a given composer. This may require some checking and re-working depending how people submit, but wouldn't it be best if all submitted pieces were not alphabetized according to spelled-out numbers first? I'm a bit tired so I'll give an example:
Trois Prèludes should be changed to 3 Prèludes and thus filed under 'P' for 'Prèludes' and Otto Variaziones changed to 8 Variaziones and filed under 'V'. This would seem to make most logical sense because no matter what language the official title is in, it is an indication of a number or quantity of a given form/name; so long as the piece titles are reworked with this in mind and no half/half entries like "Trois Gymnopedies" and for some other composer "4 Waltzes" or the likes.
Thanks for your consideration.

[imslp]

Actually, currently the sorting system already automatically deals with decimal numbers, English numbers (up to 20) and German numbers (up to 9) that occur at the beginning of the pieces correctly. The reason I'm hesitant to add more languages is because according to the IMSLP manual of style, the quantity identifier in all pieces (ex. the number at the beginning) should always be in decimal anyway; ex. "Trois Prèludes" should be "3 Prèludes" (it will be sorted correctly under P after the page is moved). This is true for the number identifiers too (ex. "Piano Sonata No.1" instead of the language equivalent of "No.1").

So this is already implemented The rest is just a matter of fixing broken titles...

[daphnis]

the quantity identifier in all pieces (ex. the number at the beginning) should always be in decimal anyway

Yes, this is what I mean, but not all pieces are listed as 3 Prèludes (and thus under 'P') as some are still Trois Prèludes and under 'T'. These must be the broken titles of which you speak. No big deal-just something that would polish up nicely.

[imslp]

Actually, this is an ongoing fix There are obviously some people who do not know the stylistic guidelines (check for the Manual of Style in the community portal), and anyone who knows them can fix them in passing if they want Of course, there will be admins on the lookout for such things too, though we may not get to fix it right away (we may well be busy on another aspects of IMSLP, or just real life).

[daphnis]

Since I don't know (or am not able?) how to correct work titles, I've edited the page marking that they need to be corrected. At least the ones of which I speak are limited to Satie's page. And BTW the 3 morceaux probably need to be taken down (I've put a note somewhere about this) as they straight rips from the CD sheet music set.

[imslp]

You can correct the work titles just by moving the page (use the "move" tab at the top of the page ).

[daphnis]

Ah, yes indeed. Thanks!

[Carolus]

FYI, the LC cataloging rules call for alphabetizing based upon the spelled-out (ordinal) numerals, in the original language as published. Thus, Debussy's Six Epigraphs Antiques are alphbetized under "S" instead of "E" and a Schirmer edition of his Twelve Etudes under "T" instead of "E". This is done even when the composer and publisher actually employed a numeral originally in the title instead of the ordinal number.

[daphnis]

the LC cataloging rules call for alphabetizing based upon the spelled-out (ordinal) numerals

Yes, I'm aware of this, however I think this system is a bit...crap...in my humble opinion Debussy wrote etudes and not "twelve"--he happened to have a quantity of 12 of these so-called "etudes". It is therefore more logical in my opinion (again) that the alphabetization should apply to the title and not a numerical indication thereof. But there are many things the LC does I think are also odd

[imslp]

FYI, the LC cataloging rules call for alphabetizing based upon the spelled-out (ordinal) numerals, in the original language as published. Thus, Debussy's Six Epigraphs Antiques are alphbetized under "S" instead of "E" and a Schirmer edition of his Twelve Etudes under "T" instead of "E". This is done even when the composer and publisher actually employed a numeral originally in the title instead of the ordinal number.

Well... that is sort of surprising... but I still think numeric numbers are better suited on IMSLP due to internationalization concerns. About the sorting... I would agree with daphnis, unless there's some other reason for the LC system that I'm didn't get?

[Carolus]

I actually see the logic behind both methods. I wonder what the British Library and others do - since the LC method is largely confined to the US? However, since the capability apparently exists for the Wikimedia software to ignore the numeral in alphabetizing, it might tip the scales in favor of taking advantage of it by doing the opposite of what LC does - treating a number in the same way that one treats "The", "La", "Der", etc. - even in the cases where the original title has it spelled out like Debussy's Trois Nocturnes. I've rarely heard the work referred to as the Trois Nocturnes. Usually it's called simply the Nocturnes.

I've had zero response from the MLA list about the virtues of LC vs. BL, sad to say.

[imslp]

However, since the capability apparently exists for the Wikimedia software to ignore the numeral in alphabetizing, it might tip the scales in favor of taking advantage of it by doing the opposite of what LC does - treating a number in the same way that one treats "The", "La", "Der", etc. - even in the cases where the original title has it spelled out like Debussy's Trois Nocturnes. I've rarely heard the work referred to as the Trois Nocturnes. Usually it's called simply the Nocturnes.

Well... even currently all English numbers (up to 20), and German numbers (up to 9) are automatically moved to the end of the title when sorting, so in a way what you are describing is already working However, I haven't added other languages because I thought it may be even better to just use numeric numbers due to internationalization concerns?

I know that "Trois Nocturnes" may be better than "3 Nocturnes" from a certain point of view, but maybe "3 Nocturnes" is acceptable considering the internationalization difficulties with written out numbers? That was the reason I encouraged the use of numeric numbers anyway... I don't know if I may have missed a better solution?