IMSLP Forums

(For my sins) I've started tagging Schein.

Is the Grove classification of Sacred Vocal vs Choral accurate to the point of using "Sacred Vocal" with individual voice tags, and "Choral" with the "ch etc." tag?

Well, Philip would probably be the person to ask about this, but couldn't it be assumed that they were all intended for chorus? How many Baroque religious works with multiple voice parts are actually OVPP? For most sacred choral stuff, I thought one could assume it would actually be performed by a full choir. Could be wrong of course...

Grove is normally fairly good at employing the formula: e.g. 4v = 4 solo voices, 4vv = 4-part chorus, so if Grove are using the former I’d tag as solo voices – it is a fairly straightforward matter to change from one to the other now, since there are tags to cover unusual vocal and choral groupings, e.g. 4vv ; ch 4vv.

The German early baroque is a vexed area for whether voices are solo or choral – by the time of Handel and Bach choruses were often treated to “stile antico” polyphony or homophonic chorales, while the newer style of expressive aria was the province of soloists; from the time of Monteverdi’s “seconda prattica” onwards, the traditional “Palestrina” method of handling a chorus was in flux, and whether a piece is truly choral or more suited to solo voices is usually determined by examining the style of the piece.

I think I might go trawling through Homer’s uploads and actually look at the pieces before making any further suggestions. My guess would be the presence of a basso continuo (seconda prattica!) means solo voices are a possibility, but by no means a certainty. Also, if the solo voices don’t cover the full ambit of sop alt ten bass, but are merely 2sop bass with continuo, then these are often soloistic pieces rather than choirs deficient of altos and tenors.

The performance issues of OVPP for the Baroque repertoire doesn’t preclude it being choral music; usage of solo/ripieno type markings point to some composers expecting quite hair-raisingly soloistic singing by choirs. When you get to Bach and OVPP issues there with the cantatas and other large sacred music, he may well have preferred more performers but was forced by contingencies to use highly experienced singers who could handle both the solo and rip. music. Bach’s contemporaries who had access to larger forces routinely did mark their music this way.

Cheers, Philip

PS Homer doesn’t include any voicing details, its all “voices” or “voices and continuo”, so don’t assume this indicates solo/choir either way. I’m about half-way through downloading the entire set.

EDITED TO ADD:

The majority of vocal works from the Gesamtausgabe fall into standard voicings by volume (with some exceptions).

Volume 1 is choral: lieder ; ch 2sop alt ten bass ; ch 5vv bc ; de (Ich will nun fröhlich singen is ch 2sop 2alt 2ten 2bass ; ch 8vv bc . The Banchetto musicale is instrumental.)
Volume 2 is solo voices: lieder ; 2sop bass bc ; de (Jocus Nuptialis is ten bc)
Volume 3 is choral: mostly lieder ; ch 2sop alt ten bass ; ch 5vv bc ; de (The alternate solo “concerto” version of Amor, das liebe Rauberlein is sop ten 2vl vla vc vlne bc)
Volume 4 is choral: these are a variety of eighteen 5 and 6 voice Latin or German motets, so owing to Homer not specifying the number these have to be downloaded to work out the voicing. Let me tag these.
Volume 5 is choral: almost all 8-part double-choir motets ; 2ch 2sop 2alt 2ten 2bass ; la or de (Alleluja, which you've already probably encountered, is single ch, not 2ch)

Also, there are works which have (SOLO) and (TUTTI) markings, which appear editorial rather than deriving from Schein – with about one clear exception, I think these may be safely ignored as spurious.

I've tagged the pieces with titles starting with A. I'll hold off on the others until I hear more. I thought of tagging for both solo and choral, tried it on one, but with the new "ch 2sop 2alt 2ten 2bass" style choral tagging it was very cluttered at the bottom, which is fine as long as it really should be that way. It was at that point that I thought I should rather get more advice, so I took out the extra tag.

As I tag, I will put specific instumentation in.

Given that we aren't supposed to use lieder unless it is in the title, should these rather be tagged as "songs"?

I'd check the full titles of the 17C collections these were published in; usually the type of piece is worked in somewhere in the title / subtitle conglomeration. I don't have Grove to hand where I am, they usually make reference to these. Lieder is the term found for similar collections of works by Lassus and Praetorius, if I recall correctly.

Cheers, Philip

I'll check Grove, then!! Thanks.

One of the pieces had the title "Madrigal" (apparently deriving from Schein) despite having a German text, so anything is possible... But I'd be sceptical of them being referred to collectively as "nouvelle chansons"!