IMSLP Forums

Just throwing out an idea for debate and comment....

Arturo and Mcroskell have both expressed an interest in processing PDFs that are sprinkled with trademarked logos of various outfits like CDSM, Everynote, etc. I've had to delete a number of such items recently due to the presence of such logos in the file.

If an FTP area could be set up so that registered users like Mcroskell and Arturo could download such files to clean them of all offending trademarks, etc., we could expand the collection that much more rapidly. As it stands, there are probably a fair number of us who have substantial collections of such files but lack the time, expertise, and software to modify the files. Moreover, there are other download sites (Tarakanov, for example, has all of vocal scores for Verdi and Puccini's operas available - complete with the offending logos, etc.) with substantial collections of such material, which really can't go up on IMSLP due to trademark concerns. Those of us with such collections could upload the file for cleaning to the FTP and those who have the processing powers could fix the files so they would be suitable to add to the general library for all to use.

This is a very nice idea My only doubt is about the possible trademark issues surrounding this feature... though I think it is very conceivable that such restricted usage of the file falls within legal usage insofar as trademark is concerned? I mean, in no way is IMSLP trying to seem like whoever owns the trademark (which would be the original point of trademarks).

Hopefully, if such a site was restricted enough, there would be no grounds to claim trademark violations - since it wouldn't be open to the general public, but only to a select group. Since the ultimate purpose is to avoid trademark violations (by removing the trademarks), the case for trademark violation is even weaker. However, I can understand your concern. One can't be too cautious these days!

I have a related idea. I think I'm not the only one who has music with incomplete or missing publisher information, and I am hesitant to upload these scores in case they aren't PD. Could there be an area where the less experienced (and less knowledgeable) uploaders can put music to be checked by others before being put on the actual site?

Specifically, I have some Carl Friedrich Abel sonatas for violin and bass and I don't know if the edition is old enough to be PD.

Ras1, since Abel died over 50 years ago, the only question you need to answer for sure is whether the particular edition was published less than 50 years ago or not. In other words, was it pubished before 1957? If so, you are free to post it unless it's a "performer's" edition, with all sorts of fingering, phrasing and performance directions. If it is such an edition (International is a publisher that specializes in such editions), the copyright is for the last surviving editor's lifetime plus 50 years in Canada.

The first IMC editions to enter the public domain in Canada will be those of the pianist Isidor Philipp (1863-1958), which will be free in 2009.

Ras1: I believe that a better (and less legally problematic) way to identify the copyright status of a piece is to have as much publisher information as you can find, and start a thread here with the info

Carolus: I'm still very much interested in somehow working out this trademark issue. Maybe we can restrict it to the point of sending the files to specific persons via e-mail? Now that the e-mail attachment limits are rather large I believe this may be feasible. Do you know anything about the limits of trademark law (i.e. under what circumstances are there protection offered)? Or is it essentially copyright law-like with no time limit (i.e. all copying is prohibited)?

Carolus: I was referring specifically to scores found on websites, not scanned ones. The Abel scores have very few marks other than music (not even plate numbers). Is there a way to tell if these are PD?

Ras1: The typeset scores you mention fall into sort of a nasty gray area as far as how I've been treating them at IMSLP. Strictly speaking, if they are mere retypesets, with no significant editing added, they are public domain in most countries. However, there are several countries (UK, Germany, and France - maybe others) that recognize a copyright for the typesetting and page layout itself.

Mostly out of courtesy, I've been assigning Creative Commons Attribution status to those from well-known sites that have free, unlimited downloads of such items, like Mutopia and WIMA. It gets a bit more problematic with files from other sites, especially the ones that make all sorts of claims of copyright, etc. If you download the file free of charge and correctly credit the typesetter, assign "Creative Commons Attribution 3.0" for the copyright status, I mark it as "checked" status unless there is some compelling reason not to - like a new transcription of arrangement, or complaints from the typesetter. A while back, I uploaded files from the Gilbert and Sullivan archive that were mere retypesets of public domain scores. The G & S site complained and we took them just as a courtesy.

Feldmahler: I suppose the potential problems that arise with the trademark issue has to do with 1) the necessity of copying a file (and embedded trademarks) in order to upload it or even e-mail it as an attachment; 2) the possible violation of trademark law by actually removing a trademark from the item. This will take some more lookng into. I don't know how strictly Canadian law treats such embedded trademarks. Another wrinkle might be that using a trademark in such a manner constitutes an attempt to secure copyright on a public domain item that may not be the physical property (virtual property?) of the trademark owner to begin with. At least in the US, some courts have held that such "backdoor" attempts to protect something that is normally the subject of copyright statutes is an invalid use of the trademark.