IMSLP Forums

Horndude77 currently has the lilypond-based retypesetting project open-score

http://open-scores.blogspot.com/

which re-typeset public-domain full scores so that both full scores and parts can be produced.

I have access to works by a public-domain Chinese symphonic composer
called Xian, Xinghai

http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Xian%2C_Xinghai

I am progressively scanning his works into PDF files. However they
are full score, therefore very difficult to be played by orchestras,
yet it would be too much for me to retypeset all works by this
composer to get the orchestral parts and the computer-generated MIDI
audio. So may I include Xian's work in your open-scores project?
Then other contributors can see the PDF images and share some of the
workload.

It is notorously difficult to have access to full scores of Chinese
symphonic works because they are usually only published *once* in a
small run initially and never republished. Moreover, orchestral parts
of these Chinese works are usually NEVER published, so most orchestra
resort to hand-copying the works.

Therefore IMSLP is perhaps the best way to let the rest of the world
learn about Chinese symphonic works............

However to play these works, we need the orchestral parts, which are not commercially available. Therefore I propose setting up a life+50yrs Lilypond repository which is based in Canada but is INDEPENDENT from IMSLP. Users can add fullscore works that are ***already be accepted by IMSLP*** to the todo list of the project. Then contributor can claim works that are on the repository, do the retypeset and get the parts. This can immensely help other ensembles to play Chinese (and Asian in general) symphonic works.

Horndude77 says that such life+50 files must be hosted in Canada. If this project only accepts works that are already on IMSLP, would it be possible for the IMSLP FTP server to host the life+50yrs lilypond site? Source files will not take very much space, and the IMSLP website is NOT affected in anyway by this arrangement.

Feldmahler (and other admins), what do you think?

Thanks!

kcleung

I think that is fine. The FTP server is in Canada too after all. Be sure to create a directory to separate the files from other projects. Also, remember that the FTP server is not backed up, and consequently liable to data loss on failure of the hard drive or something else. Never put irreplaceable files on the FTP server (always backup important files).

Otherwise I don't think there is any problem with your proposal. I'm also curious about having more Chinese music on IMSLP, though unfortunately most of the "Classic" works are actually recent and copyrighted (e.g. Butterfly Lovers Concerto). Also a note that Chinese (and HK) copyright law is life+50, so if you are in any country that has Berne's Rule of the Shorter Term, the piece is actually public domain there (i.e. most of the EU). In addition, if the piece was first published prior to 1964, it would probably be PD in the US as well, as I have severe doubts that Xian Xinghai had renewed his US copyright (that'd be pretty funny for many reasons).

But I defer to Carolus regarding the copyright.

However is the file server which host the PDF files of IMSLP proper backed up? Also do we have multiple mirrors for our PDF files as well as the content of the website?. If file server of IMSLP proper is backed up and have multiple mirrors, then would it be okay for the life+50yrs lilypond project to store file using this system?

Also for safety reasons, would it be a good idea to have backup mirrors (mirrors that do not necessary serve file / web requests) in other life+50yrs countries (possibly in a different continent)? This would provide an extra layer of safety net due to network outage, legal incidents (e.g. IMSLP servers being seized by cops in Canada), or electromagnetic storm, which may wipe out electrical devices in a continent?

The wiki and all files relating to the wiki are backed up in multiple places. Unless every single electronic device fails in North America I don't think hardware failure can kill IMSLP. Even if every single electronic device fails, I do have a somewhat outdated copy of the IMSLP on a non-electronic media. This is not to mention someone has a set of DVDs with a snapshot of IMSLP on another continent. A Bluray writer would be nice, but unfortunately Bluray disks are expensive. But perhaps this will change soon. Its a pity HDDVD didn't win the fight, as they store much more data than Bluray.

Somehow I think that the damage of every electronic device failing in NA would be... actually I'm not sure how to describe that. But don't worry about IMSLP backup, because I'm worrying about it enough myself, and one person worrying about such a thing is enough stress as it is. The world is not perfect, and anything can happen (perhaps, God forbid, we will all disappear tomorrow because of an asteroid impact). It is our job to reduce the possibility to the lowest possible, but that does not make it go away. Then again, making it impossible is itself impossible. I have seen many sites managed, some disappear because of backup issues, or the nonexistence thereof, and I think IMSLP is doing ok with regards to this.

Anyway, I would prefer you not use the wiki for this project, as it is not designed for frequent file changes. Is there a particular reason why you cannot backup the files? Xian Xinghai is to my knowledge PD in Canada, the US (most likely), EU with RoST, China and HK. If you can typeset the work, then you should be able to store it on your computer (or else you would be violating copyright law anyway).

If a distributed version control system is used (git, hg, bzr, darc, etc.) and enough people check it out and keep it updated then it should be fairly safe. Individuals can do better backups if they want.

Hosting on github is an option, but it would not work if Canadian copyright law is needed (unfortunately this would also exclude many US or EU contributors). If everything to be worked on is PD in the US and Canada then github would work fine.

I'm pretty sure git can also work over ftp, but it'd take a little bit of testing and it wouldn't be particularly safe (access control is pretty open right now so anyone could go in and blow it away).

Well, I'm going to have a SVN server on IMSLP soon. Maybe I can create an account there for you. Would that work?

Also, is there a reason why a public VCS is needed for typesetting? (Sorry, I don't have much knowledge of the typesetting world.)

imslp wrote:Well, I'm going to have a SVN server on IMSLP soon. Maybe I can create an account there for you. Would that work?

Also, is there a reason why a public VCS is needed for typesetting? (Sorry, I don't have much knowledge of the typesetting world.)

First, Horndude77 wants the project to be hosted in Canada so that this subproject will be subject to the same legislation as IMSLP.

In the typesetting world, contributors can also correct errors or improve the typesets (e.g. add cues for orchestral parts, improve layouts and page turns etc). Then once the reviewers feel the typeset is satisfactory, they can submit the generated orchestral parts file to IMSLP proper. Of course, if the orchestral parts are significantly improved (after the original PDF is accepted by IMSLP proper), then the reviewers can feel free to resubmit an updated PDF to IMSLP proper. Therefore versioning is really essential in typeset source management. each typeset score is essentially a piece of software.

I love svn too, but svn is a central repository management, which stores the modification history etc in one basket (your svn server). If you lose your server, you will still have working copies elsewhere, but you will lose all the edit history, UNLESS THE SVN SERVER ITSELF IS BACKED UP. This is why Horndude77 uses git (an open-source distributed VCS)

By the way, which VCS do you use for version control for the IMSLP wiki? You really need to talk to Horndude77 directly to discuss the way the lilypond project should be backed up and the choice of the version control system *before* you go ahead and set up the svn server!!!!!!!

kcleung

There has been a misunderstanding.

I am going to set up the SVN server for a completely unrelated purpose. And since there will be a SVN server anyway, I was wondering whether it would be interesting to have the Lilypond project hosted there also. Hence my question above.

Yes, the SVN server is in Canada. I do not know if it will be backed up, but will know when I set it up in a few weeks (it really depends on how easy it is to back up, and what uses it will be put to). The IMSLP wiki software is hosted on SVN, but that is immaterial because I'm the only one that has access to the SVN repo at the moment anyway.

This stemmed from the life+50 requirement. Perhaps I misunderstood. If the music is public domain in the US then the repository doesn't have to be hosted in Canada. If Xinghai Xian's music is the focus for now and it is public domain in the US then it can be hosted in the US.

Any of Xinghai Xian's music published without a copyright notice before 1989 is public domain in the USA. Because he was dead over 50 years by the time GATT/TRIPs came into force (1996), he is not eligible for restoration because his work is public domain in the country of origin (China). Items first published 1989 and later are problematic, along with any unpublished items. It seems to me that many works, at least, could be hosted in the USA with no problem. Canada might actually be a bit less advantageous, since they have the 50 years' rule for posthumous publications.

That's good news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Xian, Xinghai would be the focus, because most other Chinese composer are still copyrighted, unless their heirs re-license the works to CC, which in that case, would be okay to be hosted in USA anyway. So Carolus and Horndude77: would the github be a good project for making orchestral parts for public domain Chinese symphonic works?

kcleung