Soviet scores of Paliashvili's operas

Lyle Neff · Post by **Lyle Neff** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:31 pm

I could possibly extract the pages for the dances from Act II. There's no singing during those. They end the act (as in Prince Igor and many other operas).

There aren't any other purely instrumental numbers from Abesalom and Eteri besides the introduction and the dances.

However, I recall many years ago thumbing through a Soviet collection of opera music (in vocal score) from the various S.S.R.s, and the numbers from this opera represented included Eteri's opening aria, Murman's aria at the end of Act 1, and the finale ultimo.

Strangely enough, last I checked, there weren't any excerpts on YouTube from Abesalom and Eteri (although the curtailed film version of the opera has been posted online somewhere), while there are at least two YouTube concert videos of the tenor aria "Tavo tshemo" from Daisi.

Post by **Carolus** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:34 pm

I checked all of the NIEs last night and found nothing there for either Abelsalom and Eteri or Paliashvili. It is probably PD in the USA. The hard question concerns the status of the Russian translation in Canada and the EU, which would depend to a certain extent upon its status in Russia. The fact that no NIE was filed tends to weigh in favor of the work being PD in the country of origin - which basically means it's free worldwide when coupled with the probable US status. Translations seem to have an unusual status under Russian law traditionally. One of the earlier provisions I recall being enacted back under the Czars was a free right of translation. It is possible that the normal rule about derivative works doesn't apply to translations.

I would go ahead and tag the whole thing as C/C/C. In the extremely unlikely event that anyone barks, we can always take it down with apologies.

Lyle Neff · Post by **Lyle Neff** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:58 pm

Thanks, Carolus.

If necessary, I can remove the Russian translation, number by number.

Just now I was trying to replace the file for the introduction (with the drawing on the first page removed), but it wouldn't work. When I search "Paliashvili" under "file list," all the .pdf files for this opera show up, but when you click on them, the file names are shortened, and the file pages are incomplete. Any help?

Website · Post by **pml** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:12 am

The ampersand in the filenames (A&E) are jamming up the works: it makes it almost impossible to navigate to the page. I don't know if file uploads can be “moved”, in the same way Wiki pages can be. Feldmahler or a Mediawiki expert would know?

In the mean time, I suggest leaving the Introduction as it currently is: as I mentioned above, we know the identity of the illustrator, it isn’t a significant contribution in and of itself, and as a last resort we can block the file if there is a complaint.

Regards, PML :)

Lyle Neff · Post by **Lyle Neff** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:01 pm

Would be possible to rename the uploaded files themselves (to remove the ampersand) and change the names in the work page accordingly?

Website · Post by **pml** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:19 am

I don't think uploaded files can be “moved”, possibly without breaking things. You might have to upload new copies, with distinct IMSLP #s from the original set. It would be nice if the existing IMSLP #s could be retained but I doubt it would be possible.

Calling Feldmahler!?!

(Why don’t you send him a personal message or write on his talk page? I know he’s busy at present but he may be able to give a quick “yes/no” as to whether you have to upload the files again. Rest assured they will be quickly copyright tagged, now that we’ve established what we know about the piece.)

Regards, Philip

Lyle Neff · Post by **Lyle Neff** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:06 pm

Today I uploaded an edited scan of the 1941 edition of Abesalom and Eteri.

Afterward I found in a Wikipedia aritcle that the main author of the Russian translation (Ivnev) died in 1981. (I don't know the dates for the two co-authors -- but it's interesting that the 1961 edition credits one of them -- and not Ivnev -- solely for the Russian text. A comparison of the two translations would be interesting.)

Please advise regarding Ivnev, the lack of copyright, and the fact that this is a government publication. If it would be better to erase the Russian libretto, please let me know. Or, of course, these files could simply be removed.

Website · Post by **pml** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:32 pm

I would guess Ryurik is not the main translator, since he was still alive in 1961 and would surely have been credited correctly on that publication, if he were.

My Russian literacy is only just above struggling through the Cyrillic alphabet: I can read enough to sing Church Slavonic provided I've had time to nut out the worst bits ahead of time! Lyle, could you advise whether the 1941 translation substantially different from the 1961 version?

Otherwise, I'm treating the copyright tagging of the middle sections as the same as the 1961 score, V/C/V. There's nothing copyrightable in the preliminary matter or colophon, so again like the equivalents in the 1961 score, they're V/V/V.

Best regards, Philip

Lyle Neff · Post by **Lyle Neff** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:00 pm

pml wrote:I would guess Ryurik is not the main translator, since he was still alive in 1961 and would surely have been credited correctly on that publication, if he were. [...]

Oh, I suppose I wasn't clear. I meant that, why would the 1941 translation have been discarded -- assuming that the 1961 translation is substantially different? Or was politics (personal or ideological) involved? Or maybe Ivnev just didn't want to be involved with the new edition?

I'll try to do a spot check of a few pages tomorrow or Friday to see whether the translations seem different enough from each other.

temur · Post by **temur** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:28 pm

pml wrote:Hi Lyle,

The Georgian text is (wholly?) by Petre Mirianashvili (1860-1940), which would result in a tag of V/2037/2011, if the Russian text alone were scrubbed. There are apparently various others involved:

M.G. Kvaliashvili (dates?) – principal translator

Contributions(?) also by:
R. Ivnev, almost certainly the Georgian poet Ryurik Ivnev (1891–1981)
A. Kancheli (dates? related to Giya Kancheli (1935*) by any chance?)

It would help knowing the dates of Kvaliashvili (and Kancheli). I also am unable to discern which contributions belong to which individuals. If the contribution by Ivnev extends to the Georgian text as well, then it would have to go also.

If it turned out that Kvaliashvili and Kancheli predeceased Ivnev by a significant amount, it might be comparatively simpler to attempt to contact Ivnev’s heirs and ask for grant of permission, in which case the copyright tag of 2032/2037/2052 would default back to that of next previously deceased author. Assuming that the dates of the other two cannot be found, then Carolus’ suggestion of C/C/C for their contribution could be the way to go.

Very, very, confusing. (And my Georgian/Russian is negligible, though I can find my way around the Contents and Introduction as “generalities”).

Alexander Kancheli was my grandfather, famous Georgian lawer, tanslator, poet, publisher, public figure and "tamada". He died in 1947 in Tbilisi. His first spouse was also was from very famous family - Tamar Amirejibi - she died in 1917. http://www.photo.me4u.biz/displayimage. ... =7&pos=-83

Regards, PML

Lyle Neff · Post by **Lyle Neff** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:07 pm

Welcome, temur! I was born in Georgia myself -- that is, the one in the United States.

To Philip and Carolus (et al.), I'm a little unsure about how to arrive at the rationale for the copyright codes for the A&E scores. The files with sung portions are coded V/C/V for the 1941 edition and C/C/C for the 1961 edition. Does the factor of government publication have something to do with making them different from earlier projected tags such as V/2037/2011 and 2032/2037/2052?

(I can't remember what "C" means -- please remind me or send me to the relevant web page on IMSLP that explains.)

Sorry -- I'm just trying to learn. (Also, I want to be sure whether it will be O.K. for me to submit the 1960 p-v score of Daisi.)

Post by **Carolus** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:40 am

This has been a very complicated case.

1) Georgia had no copyright law until 1999. Moreover, it was not even an independent country until 1991. Therefore, the "country of origin" is the old Soviet Union, since the all of the parties involved died before Georgia existed as an independent country. Independent Georgia would have been under the CIS/Russia copyright law from 1991-1998. Also, the work was published by a state agency, both of the Georigian S.S.R or the U.S.S.R.

2) Under the Russian (or CIS) copyright law in effect from 1996-1998, the composer and librettist were both in the public domain (dead over 50 years) - making the work ineligible for GATT restoration. Since it was basically ineligible for restoration (and no NIEs were found for it), the publication sans notice means the work is probably public domain in the USA. The status of the composer and librettist in their country of origin also means they are free in both the EU and Canada thanks to rule of the shorter term. The Russian translation is therefore the only potential issue, as the translator (or at least one of the translators) lived until 1981. This would potentially effect only Canada and the EU, since failure to file an NIE in the 2-year window renders even the Russian translation PD in the USA.

3) Even with the extension of Russia's copyright term to 70pma, it only appears to apply to authors who died after 1952 (like Prokofiev). Composer, librettist and one of the translators (Kancheli) are all PD in their country of origin. Ryurik Ivnev (d.1981) is the only contributor whose work is potentially under copyright, though even that is not altogether clear.

4) Mirianashvili and Kancheli's contribution could be under copyright in Georgia today if the 1999 law (70pma) was completely retroactive. Ivnev could be under copyright also, since he's theoretically under copyright (such as it is) in Russia.

5) I almost forgot - M.G. Kvaliashvili - whose dates remain unknown, is either a co-translator or even the principal translator of the Russian text. The editorial contributions of the two people listed, Sh. Aslanishvili (1941 score) and L. Paliashvili (1961) I assume to be in the nature of a technical editor, as opposed to something more.

So, if you really want to be super-safe, I would recommend getting rid of anything contributed by Ivnev and Kvaliashvili. However, unless someone barks - given the obscurity of the work, which is not exactly in the Operatic top-100 (though it may deserve to be) - I would recommend leaving things as you have them so the piece can be enjoyed by those interested in exploring unusual works. The 1941 score was mistakenly tagged (by me as V/C/V, when it should have been C/V/C. The 1961 score was erroneously tagged C/C/C. Both of the score sections are now tagged C/V/C.