Icking Archive

emeraldimp · Post by **emeraldimp** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:14 pm

imslp wrote:This is just a suggestion; I completely understand if at this point in time you guys don't want to pay $155.40 CAD per year to handle part of IMSLP's expenses...

It's a good idea... But I can't do $140 USD right now, even if it's for a whole year. I could probably do $20-40, though. Shared server, anyone?

Post by **Leonard Vertighel** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:39 am

Same as emeraldimp: 100€ p.a. is quite a bit beyond what I was going to invest, but if we can divide it into 3 or more, I can participate. (Not sure though if it would be entirely legal for me to host material that is under copyright where I live, even if it is done in Canada - do we really have no other Canadian contributors who could at least lend their name?)

Post by **imslp** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:48 pm

Leonard Vertighel wrote:(Not sure though if it would be entirely legal for me to host material that is under copyright where I live, even if it is done in Canada - do we really have no other Canadian contributors who could at least lend their name?)

Well... I can lend my name (lol), if that is of any use? And then I can share the user account and password stuff

It'd be even better with a separate Canadian contributor though.

But anyway, another idea I've been playing with is getting universities interested; if that can happen then many of our problems are solved... and for this purpose I've been working on the welcome page, though still very much incomplete atm... If we can get universities to be interested in IMSLP, then we won't have to worry at all about what happens if I get hit by a bus

Of course this is going to be a bit of work, but hey, if CPDL can do it, so can IMSLP

Post by **Peter** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:59 pm

Leonard Vertighel wrote:Same as emeraldimp: 100€ p.a. is quite a bit beyond what I was going to invest, but if we can divide it into 3 or more, I can participate. (Not sure though if it would be entirely legal for me to host material that is under copyright where I live, even if it is done in Canada - do we really have no other Canadian contributors who could at least lend their name?)

I'm in too. Some way, I am also committed to IMSLP, and will be glad to guarantee the future of this project.

Website · Post by **pml** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:22 am

On the topic of CPDL, the cross-linking project is not dead, it's just resting...

Seriously, several of the advantages IMSLP has over CPDL are that it was built as a Wiki from the ground up, whereas CPDL had a back-catalogue of over 8000 items that had to be transitioned from an earlier server system, and IMSLP presently seems to have a slightly larger group of active Wiki maintainers. Maintaining a back-catalogue of that magnitude has been a large component of the time spent by the CPDL editors (and the fact that many of us "roll our own" editions rather than just scanning other's work).

Lastly Rafael Ornes is himself extremely busy in real life at present, which has severely limited the amount of site development that can currently occur: anything requiring shell access to the server or access to the php/scripts on the site cannot currently be handled by the Wiki admins, only by Rafe himself.

If you'd have any suggestions for CPDL to help us out, we're all ears

Regards, Philip

Post by **imslp** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:52 pm

Peter wrote:I'm in too. Some way, I am also committed to IMSLP, and will be glad to guarantee the future of this project.

Great, now we have to either wait for a Canadian contributor to come, or, if you guys are fine with it I can use my name, and give you all separate FTP account access to the server with a full backup. I'll also pay 1/4 in that case, since I'll also have access to the server

Though I would myself perfer another Canadian contributor just so that not everything is controlled by me.

pml wrote:On the topic of CPDL, the cross-linking project is not dead, it's just resting...

Well... that is good

I'm sorry to hear that Mr. Ornes is so busy...

By the way, does CPDL have any sort of backup system besides what Mr. Ornes himself does? I.e. a third party backup so that someone else could restart the project if something (god forbid) happens to Mr. Ornes? If CPDL does, I'd love to hear about it, since we are planning our own third party backup system, and CPDL is so much more like IMSLP than Wikipedia

Post by **Leonard Vertighel** » Thu May 03, 2007 7:39 pm

Is there an approximate ETA for the donation system? For if it is coming soon, we might also consider the financial issue and the access to the backup separately. For example, we could arrange that every admin gets access to the backup (read-only should do I guess), independently from the amount of money he wishes to donate.

Just to prevent misunderstandings: I'm not trying to back out - if it's going to take a while before the donation system works, I can pay that 1/3 of the costs right now. One way or another, I'll pay what I promised

Anyway, I think that the donation system and subsequent move to a bigger server should get highest priority now. (I know that Feldmahler is busy - I didn't say "do it now", just "do it before other probably less important things"

) Right now, I'm rather frustrated that a minor change to the File template has effectively knocked out IMSLP for almost an hour now. I was thinking that maybe for the while being we should block the templates "File" etc. which are used in many pages, since each edit seems to knock out IMSLP for quite a while. Internationalization can wait until we have a bigger server, I believe...

Post by **imslp** » Thu May 03, 2007 7:58 pm

Leonard Vertighel wrote:Anyway, I think that the donation system and subsequent move to a bigger server should get highest priority now. (I know that Feldmahler is busy - I didn't say "do it now", just "do it before other probably less important things" ) Right now, I'm rather frustrated that a minor change to the File template has effectively knocked out IMSLP for almost an hour now. I was thinking that maybe for the while being we should block the templates "File" etc. which are used in many pages, since each edit seems to knock out IMSLP for quite a while. Internationalization can wait until we have a bigger server, I believe...

I'm thinking to add a function which will not make the template kill the cache of every associated page when it is modified, but do not know when it will be done...

Post by **Leonard Vertighel** » Thu May 03, 2007 8:04 pm

imslp wrote:I'm thinking to add a function which will not make the template kill the cache of every associated page when it is modified, but do not know when it will be done...

But won't that mean that changes to the template are not reflected in the pages until they are edited? Since IMSLP pages are not edited very frequently, that could mean more or less forever...

emeraldimp · Post by **emeraldimp** » Thu May 03, 2007 8:53 pm

I was trying to find some help on the Mediawiki site on a method to have a template change mark its pages as 'touched', and then only regenerate them in the cache when next viewed, but no luck. Is that a workable idea?

A sidenote, however, is this article on Transclusion Costs and Benefits.

Post by **imslp** » Thu May 03, 2007 9:48 pm

emeraldimp wrote:I was trying to find some help on the Mediawiki site on a method to have a template change mark its pages as 'touched', and then only regenerate them in the cache when next viewed, but no luck. Is that a workable idea?

Actually, this is more or less what already happens... but the server cannot take the load of running entirely without cache (normally it runs with two levels of cache: parser cache and file cache for anonymous users).

Transclusion is indeed costly... but for IMSLP it is almost essential...

Post by **imslp** » Thu May 03, 2007 9:55 pm

Leonard Vertighel wrote:But won't that mean that changes to the template are not reflected in the pages until they are edited? Since IMSLP pages are not edited very frequently, that could mean more or less forever...

Well, the idea is to shorten the cache timeout cycle from the current 1 month to 3 days (if a page that was generated more than 3 days ago is accessed, reparse it), so that any page would be at least within 3 days recency. I think the server can handle regenerating the entire IMSLP site spread out over the course of 3 days (at least for now)...

Post by **imslp** » Thu May 03, 2007 10:27 pm

Leonard Vertighel wrote:Is there an approximate ETA for the donation system? For if it is coming soon, we might also consider the financial issue and the access to the backup separately. For example, we could arrange that every admin gets access to the backup (read-only should do I guess), independently from the amount of money he wishes to donate.

I'll re-set up the donation system in about 1-2 weeks, and we'll see how it goes

Post by **Peter** » Sat May 05, 2007 7:38 pm

uh guys, to come back on the original topic: WIMA don't want their scores to be redistributed, as is clearly readable in their copyright notice. It doesn't mean that this has legal consequences, but imho, concerning typesets I would pay respect to the enormous work of the typesetters (have you ever tried typesetting? it really is an enourmous amount of work) by simply not uploading their files if they ask not to do so...

The copyright of the archive

The archive contains "free" sheet music, free for non-commercial usage. This means that you may download the files and print paper copies, but neither the files nor the paper copies may be sold. You are not allowed to distribute digital copies of these editions to other web archives, either in the existing format or any other derived format without the explicit consent of the Icking Archive editors. The right to print the music does not automatically imply the right for public performance; that right is regulated by applicable copyright legislation. Such legislation holds that the copyright on the music itself remains in force until 70 years after the composer's death

Post by **imslp** » Sat May 05, 2007 7:48 pm

Peter wrote:uh guys, to come back on the original topic: WIMA don't want their scores to be redistributed, as is clearly readable in their copyright notice. It doesn't mean that this has legal consequences, but imho, concerning typesets I would pay respect to the enormous work of the typesetters (have you ever tried typesetting? it really is an enourmous amount of work) by simply not uploading their files if they ask not to do so...

Well... the thing is that so far all the WIMA contributors I've e-mailed permitted the use of their files on IMSLP... I think that they might want their typesets to be on IMSLP (I mean, why not?

The WIMA archive itself may not like this, but there's no real reason for the typesetter him/herself to not like this, imo). I think maybe it is a good idea, especially with the new tagging system, to just e-mail the WIMA contributor and then, if they allow distribution, to tag the file as "verified", and delete the file if otherwise. You can even write a "template" e-mail for this, so you don't have to write the e-mail every time

In the long run this may be easier than having to notify the submitter, delete the files, etc. Of course, we should still encourage people to get permission before posting (maybe you can add something to this regard on the user page? I'm thinking templates come in handy here

).

I may have overlooked something, or underestimated the workload; so please keep me up to date on how this goes... or suggest any improvements