IMSLP Forums

how do you decide when to write a symphony? i mean... how do you know what ideas to choose for it ?

i'm rather curios. i find myself waking up and having some ideas in my head.. all well orchestrated and i can really hear the whole thing in my head, i write em down but then i can't find my way going on.

so... how do you write a symphony?

First, I want to say I think that, if 500 people were to write a symphony each, there would be 500 different methods used--- everybody would write a symphony differently. There is no one way.

Personally, I would follow the common symphonic form at least loosely, that is, in movements:
1st) Opening moderate to fast tempo, sonata form
2nd) Slow movement, no set form
3rd) Quick scherzo and trio
4th) Closing allegro, rondo or sonata form

Of course, there's no need to make it obvious that, say, the first movement is in sonata form, like Beethoven did. I personally dislike rondo form, so I might make the fourth movement a theme and variations instead. I also rather like the idea of a fugue finale, or perhaps a passacaglia and chaconne.

The point is that I may not use the generally accepted musical forms, but I will use some form. To me, a symphony should not be a rhapsody.

Then, I would try to compose the symphony movement by movement, composing the various themes first and then fleshing the movement out by orchestration and joing the themes together. I would try to keep a balance of preparation and spontaneity-- that is, I would compose the themes first, but I wouldn't quite know where I would go with them until I actually did.

That's generally the extent I can explain a process like this, because (one) I have never actually done it before, and (two) it is hard for me to explain the actual process of composing a melody and things like that.

Not all orchestral ideas turn into symphonies. Oftentimes I jot down these ideas, and when I've accumulated enough good ones, string together the ones that go well together in some form and call it a "rhapsody" or a "fantasy"

I've always wished for a machine that could hook into my brain and record the stuff that goes on in my head...

I like writing orchestral pieces, so I write it - never going to be played*, but I still find it enjoyable! I've never realy written for solo piano before (odd hey) only one piece, so lately I've decided to write a few things for piano - a sonata for honours next year, and set of bagatelles.
*(Gonna have one work-shopped next year however, and if things go well, played)

how do you know what ideas to choose for it ?

There isn't an answer really, but some things are idiomatic to certain instruments, and thus a piece written for harpsichord could never (properly) work as an orchestral piece.

I compose for fun; most of my ideas never make it past the ninth or tenth measure. If I feel like writing a symphony, I start with a fast/semi-fast, or even sometimes slow movement, and I experiment with solo entrances, section chords (e.g., brass fanfare), mysterious-sounding beginnings (cellos and basses doubling each other is perfect), or bass-line ostinatos (pl. form is?). Most of the time, however, I get my ideas from other pieces.

I want to find a story for tone poem... Any one know a spare one?

Sean Salamon wrote:First, I want to say I think that, if 500 people were to write a symphony each, there would be 500 different methods used--- everybody would write a symphony differently. There is no one way.

Personally, I would follow the common symphonic form at least loosely, that is, in movements:
1st) Opening moderate to fast tempo, sonata form
2nd) Slow movement, no set form
3rd) Quick scherzo and trio
4th) Closing allegro, rondo or sonata form

Of course, there's no need to make it obvious that, say, the first movement is in sonata form, like Beethoven did. I personally dislike rondo form, so I might make the fourth movement a theme and variations instead. I also rather like the idea of a fugue finale, or perhaps a passacaglia and chaconne.

The point is that I may not use the generally accepted musical forms, but I will use some form. To me, a symphony should not be a rhapsody.

Then, I would try to compose the symphony movement by movement, composing the various themes first and then fleshing the movement out by orchestration and joing the themes together. I would try to keep a balance of preparation and spontaneity-- that is, I would compose the themes first, but I wouldn't quite know where I would go with them until I actually did.

That's generally the extent I can explain a process like this, because (one) I have never actually done it before, and (two) it is hard for me to explain the actual process of composing a melody and things like that.

Very well said. However slow movements are frequently in ABA or ABABA form.

ThaSchwab wrote:cellos and basses doubling each other is perfect

Which they do 90% of the time anyway.

Yagan Kiely wrote:I want to find a story for tone poem...

Éros and Psyché.

Personally.... I'm VERY un-orthodox...

I start with the instrumentation and only sketched out my 1st 3 Symphonies...which didn't really turn out ...

Otherwise....they are actually very easy to write (for me...I'm terrible at everything else.... )

Just write what you feel/know/hope for/ desire/etc.... And remember to let every Horn and Trumpet player trill at least ONCE in EVERY movement! (Just in case I ever get the chance to play it! I love trills )

I start with the instrumentation

I do to, just can't do double piano sketches... I just keep writing it... for piano. Elgar never did piano sketches, I *think* Berlioz didn't either.

Rimsky-Korsakov wrote out his orchestral works in full score until he came to his opera Snowmaiden, when he decided to write in piano-vocal score or some comparable reduction. See his memoirs.

I just started writing orchestral works more recently as composer. I highly recommend good software like Sibelius, Notion, or Finale, which now have more sophisticated sampling engines and sample libraries allowing for solo and ensemble instruments, articulations, dynamics, variable tempo, etc. It is obviously challenging to have an orchestral piece performed by a "real" orchestra, but the fact that software is now being used for movie scoring, live on Broadway, etc., is testiment to how useful it really is. On the compostional aspect, I find that certain musical ideas lend themselves to orchestral writing, or I initially hear them as such. I prefer not to "compose by numbers" or as another mentioned using the classical structure of four movements - allegro, andante, minuet, presto, etc., becuase writing music to past aesthetics isn't very interesting to me. For me, I'm interested in using the instruments of the orchestra (and so do a lot of research on orchestration), and keeping the instruments in play and balance is important (for players as well). I tend to develope my material from a motivic/thematic aspect and there is ample opportunity to use imitation between instrumental groups, call and response between instrumental blocks ie., brass, woodwinds, strings, etc., as well as more exotic instrumental pairing in the Berlioz sense. Truthfully, I tend to work out my ideas in a simpler piano version then transfer the material to orchestration once I have my harmonic, thematic, and contrapuntal ideas worked out.

While I'm not a composer, as conclusively demonstrated by the pieces I turned into my mandatory composition classes in college, I want to put in a plug for feeling free not to follow classical models (4 movements, sonata form etc.). Some very successful pieces called symphonies don't necessarily do this. My favorite example of this is the Sibelius 7th. But what that piece, and almost all symphonies do (including those not written for orchestras) is pay attention to motivic derivation (a hallmark of the Sibelius as well as the Brahms 1st) and/or development. Having good ideas that one can hear in one's head already fully orchestrated will only take you a few bars. Writing a coherent structure that takes several minutes manipulating motives or melodies in an interesting way is another matter altogether.

--Sixtus

Just be virtuostic! Play a melody you want to write, and after hearing it, write it.