Mahler, Overrated?

[allegroamabile]

When you were describing people who complain about Mahler in "real life", Yagan Kiely, were you implying that this forum is fake?

[dwil9798]

Could Brahm's friend, Herr tickle88, be thinking of the finale of Mozart's 41st Symphony? The main theme is, of course, begins C D F E A A A.

[vinteuil]

My thoughts exactly, but no.

[Yagan Kiely]

Agreed, but in his symphonies at least, even the quiet, transparent passages tend to be rather blunt. IMO, his song cycles are his best works because they don't have that trait so much. (Actually, I feel that his Tenth doesn't too much either, which is why I consider it the best of his symphonies.)

Fair enough. I too also consider his 10th his better Symphony.

When you were describing people who complain about Mahler in "real life", Yagan Kiely, were you implying that this forum is fake?

It's a common term for Digital Natives to separate the unseparable. I mean people I have physical contact with.

I feel that it was implied that this entire thread was in one's opinion because even a world-class authority is only a respectable opinion.

Would class authorities would back up any arguments (which this thread has few of anyway), with Aesthetics and as many musical insights as possible.

And you yourself said that Beethoven was overrated, adding 'IMHO'.

I'll retract the statement. If everyone followed my criteria Beethoven would certainly be overrated but they don't so he isn't. Beethoven's 'good' pieces are possibly the best music in existence, but he did compose quite a few (understandably) lesser known and, to be honest, bad pieces of music (Wellington's Victory for example)

Well, the supporters are the ones rating him/her, so 'overrated' could just mean that there's too much jingoism surrounding the music of that composer.

I meant that (if anyone) he should be judged by those who do not have intimate ties to him (his fans). There are no such fans at my uni, but he is still one of the most popular orchestral composer.

So the only real difference in what we have said in that particular area (besides the wording of the reasons) was the tone of the response, which in your case was reasonable and in my case was raging. However, if I did have reasons that were in and of themselves halfway reasonable, then there's not much reason to call me (or anyone else who gave reasons) fallacious, especially since you replied with your opinions as well.

No no! I'm not saying you are fallacious, I'm saying that the argument (in it's current form) that either Brahms or Mahler are overrated is fallacious – not you.

Could Brahm's friend, Herr tickle88, be thinking of the finale of Mozart's 41st Symphony? The main theme is, of course, begins C D F E A A A.

Those three A's don't even half resolve though!

[allegroamabile]

The other thing about Mahler is his ensemble choice is very limited (symphonies, leiders, couple of chamber works). No concertos!

[Lyle Neff]

The other thing about Mahler is his ensemble choice is very limited (symphonies, leiders, couple of chamber works). No concertos!

That's a bad thing?

(I've tried Mahler's music, but find it as tedious -- or maybe the word is "over-indulgence-begging" -- as Wagner's and Bruckner's and R. Strauss'.)

[Yagan Kiely]

Many of the 'Opera' composers rarely compose anything but operas. That said, I read somewhere that Mahler was planning to write some operas… but he died (the opposite I remember to have read being the case for Wagner).

[Lyle Neff]

Many of the 'Opera' composers rarely compose anything but operas. That said, I read somewhere that Mahler was planning to write some operas… but he died (the opposite I remember to have read being the case for Wagner).

You mean, Wagner was planning to UN-write some operas?

(Sorry -- couldn't resist...)

[Yagan Kiely]

Indeed! most composers do tend to decompose after their death.

</badmusicaljoke>

[allegroamabile]

Many of the 'Opera' composers rarely compose anything but operas. That said, I read somewhere that Mahler was planning to write some operas... but he died (the opposite I remember to have read being the case for Wagner).

Wagner wrote a descent amout of orchestral pieces, there are just not played. Below are his list of compositions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ard_Wagner

[Yagan Kiely]

I'm well aware of what Wagner wrote, but they do contribute much to his opus (numbers aren't everything). Same with Puccini, Verdi and even Rossini to an extent.

[tickle88]

A few more random thoughts: I think this forum is great fun, most of the contributions intelligent, and informative, too. Congrats to those who got the riddle. Haydn uses the CDFE theme in one of his early symphonies as well. Probably true Brahms story: when someone pointed out the similarity of the violin theme in the finale of the 1st to Beethoven's 9th, Brahms snapped, "Das sieht jeder Narr." And finally, Mahler's 3rd ends with an adagio, but scarcely p. Two (!) tympanists hitting do- sol- do etc do not make for snoozing in the second balcony. Happy August to all!

[allegroamabile]

The Reformation Symphony has really cool and neat dotted eighths and sixteenth note-like figures in the first movement.

Slip of tongue, I obviously meant to say Resurrection Symphony rather than Reformation which is Mendelssohn's Symphony No. 5.

[Deinonychus]

I think some of Brahms' music is overrated, particularly his orchestral pieces, but his chamber music is some of the best there is. I particularly appreciate the Op.34 Piano Quintet, the Horn Trio, and the Op.119 Klavierstücke

On the subject of Mahler, I enjoy all his symphonies, some more than others, but I for me the greatest is No. 7, which hasn't really been mentioned so far

[allegroamabile]

On the subject of Mahler, I enjoy all his symphonies, some more than others, but I for me the greatest is No. 7, which hasn't really been mentioned so far

On the contrary Deinonychus (what is that, some Roman god?).

there are some Mahler out there which I really do enjoy, for instance his Symphony No. 1 and the terrific and engaging opening of the last movement in his Seventh Symphony.