Best Composer ever

[ThaSchwab]

He wrote four.

[aldona]

I struggle, really struggle, to see why Schubert does not feature up there with Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.

In his songs he is unsurpassed, All of them, as brahms would have said. His last piano sonatas pick up where Beethoven left the genre and no one has since written anything that exquisite for the piano - chopin included. His string quintet is the supreme composition in chamber music (or all music) and then there are those other chamber masterpieces, the D minor and G major quartets and the piano trios. The two symphonies reach extreme depths of bitter-sweet emotion while showcasing as skillful an orcherstrator as any - oh yes, no one dares say it, "Schubert the great orcestrator".
His music moved composers such as Schumann, Brahms, Mendelsohn and Liszt in a way we hardly see anywhere else. There is a uniqute term, "schubertian", which applies to those who cherish the uniqueness of the emotional world of this music and there is no comparable term for any other composer. There are no "Beethovenians" or "Mozartians". Perhaps not because they are not as greatly admired but perhaps no other composer has reached the depths of emotion that Schubert has. Watch out how pianists like Brendel, Richter, Schiff look up to Schubert and single him out in a place amongst all composers, the first and the latter happily allowing themselves to be called "schubertians".

He died at the age of 31. Beethoven had, by then, written one symphony, the early quartetts and the "moonlight" would have been the pinnacle of his achievement for the piano. I dont remember who said it but it is apt: Schubert's early death is the worse catastrophy in the history of music. What he did in the very few years he composed is the ultimate achievement, though he never of course saw it as such.

And for those who are impressed by the wonder stories about Mozart, do look up what Schubert wrote in September 1827. Has any person, in any field, achieved so much, in such a short period of time?

just want to second all of the above.

just my opinion:

if mozart effect = enhanced intelligence
then schubert effect = enhanced emotional intelligence

aldona
(life member of the schubert fan club)

[aldona]

[...] The two symphonies reach extreme depths of bitter-sweet emotion [...]

I was under the impression that Schubert wrote more than two symphonies.

He wrote four.

What the???

Symphony No.1 (D.82)
Symphony No.2 (D.125)
Symphony No.3 (D.200)
Symphony No.4 (D.417)
Symphony No.5 (D.485)
Symphony No.6 (D.589)
Sketches for Symphony in D (D.615)
(Symphony in D? (D.708a?) )
Symphony No.8 "Unfinished" (D.759)
(Symphony "Gmunden-Gastein", D.849; Lost? or same as D.944?)
Symphony in D, D.936a (sketches)
Symphony No.9 (D.944)
Fragment of a Symphony in D (D.997)

Even allowing for all the unfinished bits & pieces, that's a lot more than four.

Or it's too early in the morning and I can't count.

aldona

[Yagan Kiely]

I most certainly wrote more than 4. Brahms wrote 4, maybe that is where the confusion is coming from?

if mozart effect = enhanced intelligence
then schubert effect = enhanced emotional intelligence

And if the Mozart effect is a farce?*



*Which it is...

[rememberremember]

I'm talking about piano here:
Best: Brahms
Worst: Mozart... sorry...

[Yagan Kiely]

"Location: Where you cannot find me..." - I can check your IP, and unless you are using a proxy...

[aldona]

And if the Mozart effect is a farce?*



*Which it is...

Then the Schubert effect only makes you THINK you are more emotionally switched on.

If you Google "schubert effect" you will come across some of the original research papers on the alleged "Mozart effect", in which the researchers state that for all psychological measures and parameters they tested, there was also an identical "Schubert effect."

Hence...if there is a positive benefit to the brain, it is probably attributable equally to all classical music, not just Mozart.


aldona

[aldona]

I have collected the following from various sites around the web...

You’ve heard of the Mozart Effect, i.e., listening to Mozart increases one’s spatial IQ. BUT, have you heard of the …
LISZT EFFECT: Child speaks rapidly and extravagantly, but never really says anything important.
BRUCKNER EFFECT: Child speaks very slowly and repeats himself frequently. Gains reputation for profundity.
WAGNER EFFECT: Child becomes a megalomaniac. May eventually marry his sister.
MAHLER EFFECT: Child continually screams — at great length and volume — that he’s dying.
SCHOENBERG EFFECT: Child never repeats a word until he’s used all the other words in his vocabulary. Sometimes talks backwards. Eventually, people stop listening to him. Child blames them for their inability to understand him.
BABBITT EFFECT: Child gibbers nonsense all the time. Eventually, people stop listening to him. Child doesn’t care because all his playmates think he’s cool.
IVES EFFECT: the child develops a remarkable ability to carry on several separate conversations at once.
GLASS EFFECT: the child tends to repeat himself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
STRAVINSKY EFFECT: the child is prone to savage, guttural and profane outbursts that often lead to fighting and pandemonium in the preschool.
BRAHMS EFFECT: the child is able to speak beautifully as long as his sentences contain a multiple of three words (3, 6, 9, 12, etc). However, his sentences containing 4 or 8 words are strangely uninspired.
Or: Brahms effect: Child plagiarizes so forcefully that onlookers marvel at his learning, scholarship, and of course, force.
Rossini Effect: Child will be lazy as hell but a lot of fun.
Schumann effect: Child speaks in poetry, then tries to drown himself.
Berlioz effect: Child takes opium and speaks REALLY LOUDLY.
Debussy effect: Child can’t talk, but loves pictures.
OR: DEBUSSY EFFECT: Child murmurs and mumbles in a sensuous vocabulary that seems to go nowhere, with occasional spouts of fireworks and jazz puppetry.
Faure effect: Child’s speech is too refined and elegant to be heard by coarse and insensitive persons.
Prokofiev Effect: Child speaks wildly and brilliantly, with a huge vocabulary. But… was he being serious?

ORFF EFFECT: The child delights in saying naughty things which no one else can understand.
Verdi effect: Child continually screams.
GRANGER EFFECT
Child will refuse to speak existing languages and will make up his own.
RZEWSKI EFFECT: the child tells the teacher that s/he is a victim of capitalist society in 36 different ways.
BACH EFFECT : Child weaves multiple sentences into an eloquent whole that takes ages to be properly understood.
OR:
BACH EFFECT: Child speaks in structurally perfect multiple voices, forwards, backwards, upside-down, augmented and diminished, solely for the glory of God.
SHOSTAKOVICH EFFECT : Child appears to work diligently, but on careful examination you find his work mostly consists of disguised remarks about how much he hates you.


And then, of course, the CAGE EFFECT — child says nothing for precisely 4 minutes, 33 seconds. Preferred by 9 out of 10 classroom teachers.

[ThaSchwab]

[...] The two symphonies reach extreme depths of bitter-sweet emotion [...]

I was under the impression that Schubert wrote more than two symphonies.

He wrote four.

What the???

Symphony No.1 (D.82)
Symphony No.2 (D.125)
Symphony No.3 (D.200)
Symphony No.4 (D.417)
Symphony No.5 (D.485)
Symphony No.6 (D.589)
Sketches for Symphony in D (D.615)
(Symphony in D? (D.708a?) )
Symphony No.8 "Unfinished" (D.759)
(Symphony "Gmunden-Gastein", D.849; Lost? or same as D.944?)
Symphony in D, D.936a (sketches)
Symphony No.9 (D.944)
Fragment of a Symphony in D (D.997)

Even allowing for all the unfinished bits & pieces, that's a lot more than four.

Or it's too early in the morning and I can't count.

aldona

Sorry, I get Schumann and Schubert mixed up quite a bit. Schumann wrote four.

[pml]

Hi Aldona,

Although you traditionally only usually hear the 7 complete symphonies ("1-6" and "9") and the Unfinished ("8"), you can stretch it out to 11 complete with various performing editions of the incomplete works and sketches, as well as the orchestration of Schubert's Grand Duo for piano, which in the 19th century was viewed as possibly being the same work as the "Gmunden-Gastein" symphony (the evidence for this claim being at least as slippery as the claims that it was the "Great" C major):

Symphony No.1 in D (D.82)
Symphony No.2 in B flat (D.125)
Symphony No.3 in D (D.200)
Symphony No.4 in C minor "Tragische" (D.417)
Symphony No.5 in B flat [Symphony without trumpets and drums] (D.485)
Symphony No.6 in C [sometimes called the little C major] (D.589)
Symphony No.7 in E (D.729), complete sketches of 4 movements, and portions of full score; performing edition completed by Brian Newbould (two other completions by Weingartner and Barnett)
Symphony No.8 in B minor "Unvollendete"/"Unfinished" (D.759), two complete movements, plus Scherzo and first half of a Trio in sketches and partial full score; numerous completions, including one by yours truly, adapting the B minor Entr'acte No. 1 from Rosamunde (D.797) as a finale;
Grand Duo in C (D.812), orchestrated by Joseph Joachim
Symphony No.9 in C [the Great] (D.944)
Symphony No.10 in D (D.936a), fairly extensive sketches; performing edition by Newbould, and a "Rendering" of the sketches by Luciano Berio

The comparably unperformable ones are:
Fragment of a Symphony in D (D.997/D.2b)
Sketches for Symphony in D (D.615)
Sketches for Symphony in D (D.708a)

And then:
Symphony "Gmunden-Gastein" (D.849), lost? or possibly the same as D.812 or D.944? (both possibilities viewed as unlikely)

The Abbado set of the Schubert symphonies with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe includes the Grand Duo D.812, though I would have been much more pleased if they'd included the Newbould's editions of 7/E and 10/D as well as one of the standard completions of 8/b. There are very few recordings of these and I'm not sure any are currently available commercially.

Regards, Philip

[django09]

I'd have to say Bach is the greatest composer ever, at least in terms of influence. Both Mozart and Beethoven were heavily influenced by the Well-Tempered Klavier, in addition to other compositions by Bach.

Bach is also my favorite composer though, so of course I'm not biased...

[Sean Salamon]

The greatest composer ever? I think Bach.

My personal favorite? Ralph Vaughan Williams or Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov.

[MAYVE]

Hullo,
I say, you guys talk quite a lot on Bach (with justice - he IS probably the most innovative and productive ever... well I don't need to repeat all of the things above...) - I certainly DON'T want to contradict any opinions of others about this topic, I just want to add my own views (uncertain as they may be...)

I love Beethoven's music (unlike many composers, it is continuously enjoyable and rewarding to listen to EVERY single Opus, or Hess no., or whatever... always exciting and full of strength of resolve (you may have heard that before...) from the symphonies, to the string quartets to the piano and violin & cello - piano to the piano trios etc.
etc. - both one of the greatest musical genii as well as a composer I could easily say is my favourite... )

But the LATEST 'B' - Brahms!!! why forget him? I truly think he is somewhat under-appreciated contrary his true place - ranked up on the same level as Bach in musical innovation and power of musical expression - so what if he was a perfectionist? I still think he is well, at least ONE of the greatest composers ever.... maybe also because of his ability to use constructively the heritage of his predecessors, weaved with a good measure of his own genius.

cheers,
MAYVE

[Yagan Kiely]

There isn't really such a thing as genius... People aren't born with the ability to compose music any more than someone is born to plumb a toilet.

[hugobouma]

I will have to concur with everyone who has said Bach's the greatest--I could listen to it a thousand more times and it would not tire me.

But the LATEST 'B' - Brahms!!! why forget him? I truly think he is somewhat under-appreciated contrary his true place - ranked up on the same level as Bach in musical innovation and power of musical expression - so what if he was a perfectionist? I still think he is well, at least ONE of the greatest composers ever.... maybe also because of his ability to use constructively the heritage of his predecessors, weaved with a good measure of his own genius.

It is a matter of personal preference, I'm sure, but listening to Brahms always makes me feel exhausted. He was an incredibly gifted composer, and I can recognise him for that, but he wants too much at the same time. No sense of moderation for the unaccustomed ear, whereas you can listen to Bach at about any level of theoretical insight, not just with years in formal training.
(By the way, Brahms is hardly the worst offender. Compare for example some of the organ works by Reger, Vierne or Sorabji; they obviously knew what they were doing, but had considerable trouble with moderation.)
That is also what bothers me about Mozart. The guy was obviously a genius, but his musical style only expresses that in a certain number of pieces; it seems to me he was afraid of putting too much of a strain on the listener. Please, let him have written more like the Adagio and Fugue in C minor or the String Quartet no. 19! I can easily handle that kind of music!
Bach for me strikes the most perfect balance between listenability (is that even a word?) and theoretical sophistication.