Proposed new genres

[Operalala]

I also like the idea of an "Instructional" category which would include both methods and exercises. If this is going to be a subcategory of the different instruments, put one under "Vocal" as well...

Under staged vocal works:
-"Singspiele" and "Operas-comiques" are forms of Operettas, and probably don't need to be in separate categories because they can be searched by intersecting "Operetta" with "German" or "French" languages. Also, "Operettas and Musicals" are commonly grouped together.
-"Opera-ballet" should not have a category of its own, because that is specifically a French opera from the baroque period.

Under Choral works:
-A Liturgy is a Mass
-I'd add a category like "Hymns" to cover shorter sacred choral works
-I'd avoid "Cantatas" and "Motets" at this time, because they can be choral or solo, and their definitions varied in different periods
-I'd include a category for "Secular Choral Works"
-Would a choral symphony be categorized a "Symphony"?

Under Vocal works:
-Try using "Traditional" instead of "Folk Songs", as that might cover more ground.
-Madrigals is too specific, unless we have more early music categories - perhaps an "Early Vocal Works" would cover Medieval to Baroque periods.
-Add a "Popular" category for jazz and parlor pieces

Operalala

[Lyle Neff]

[...] -"Opera-ballet" should not have a category of its own, because that is specifically a French opera from the baroque period.

Not so: Rimsky-Korsakov's Mlada is an opera-ballet.

Under Choral works:
-A Liturgy is a Mass

Liturgy is simply "prescribed forms or ritual for public worship in any of various religions or churches." Sometimes service of the Eucharist is referred to as the "Divine Liturgy." In any case, the Mass is not the only liturgy.

[Operalala]

Liturgy is broader religious term, but would this cause confusion in music, where we have many "Masses"?

A number of operas contain ballet sequences (i.e. Gioconda), but you wouldn't categorize them, or a 19th century Russian work in a baroque French genre, no matter what the composer called it. In any case they are all specific instances of Opera.

Operalala

[Operalala]

Looking outside of vocal music, I came up with some questions:

-Would "Film music" be a type of "Incidental music"
-Would using "Concertante" obviate the need for a double concerto category?
-By the definition given, isn't "Concertante" a sub-category of "Orchestral"?
-How informative are the current Orchestral sub-categories to users?
-Is it essential to have categories for every single chamber ensemble size? It's not like the instrumental composition is given, and that's just as important.
-Is 10 performers the most productive splitting point between chamber and orchestra? (It just seems sort of arbitrary)
-"Sonatas" are just as vague as "Motets" and "Cantatas".
-Under "Writings", how are we defining "Treatises" as opposed to "Theoretical" or "Critiques". It also seems that Theoretical and Critical writings would tend to overlap quite a bit.

The sub-genres are optional, and may be omitted.

This I do disagree with - for instance, lumping vocal works, with ballets, with incidental music under "Stage Works" is not very informative. I mean I think there should be super-categories to help orient uploaders and editors, but the subcategories should be made as specific and informative as need be, and they should be used for categorization.

Operalala

[Janet]

Where do you propose to put instrumental duets, e.g. works for two violins or violin and cello? A separate duet category in the Chamber genre?

And what about vocalises, solfeges and sightsinging exercises? A separate category in Vocal? Or a separate category in writings, cf teaching methods?

[Davydov]

Thanks for the latest responses. To reply first to Operalala — the sub-genres shown are only possible examples, and people should be encouraged to add to them as they think necessary. I expect as more and more works are labelled there will be debates over the definitions of "Motets", "Cantatas", etc., out of which a consensus may eventualy evolve. I've certainly no intention of attempting to list every possible sub-genre (even if I could), let alone attempt to come up with definitions. Some works will be impossible to categorise, and rather than try to force them into a sub-genre where they don't belong, it would be best to leave this entry blank, or ask the views of other users which existing (or new) category would be most appropriate for that particular work.

I should mention that the sub-genres given as examples have all been suggested by IMSLP users. It is important to remember that while one user might not see the point of a particular sub-genre, another person might find it invaluable. For this reason I certainly think that sub-genres should not be removed or merged unless there is a wide agreement.

To answer Janet's question — works for two violins or violin or cello would come under the Chamber genre; Vocalises under the Vocal genre; Solfeges and sightsinging exercises (provided they have instructional text as well as music) under Writings. It sounds like sub-genres for Vocalises and Solfeges sounds could be useful as well.

[Operalala]

the sub-genres shown are only possible examples, and people should be encouraged to add to them as they think necessary

If we don't think this through, and debate what we need, as you mention, we will just end up with a random jumble of categories which will not help users find things.

[Davydov]

If we don't think this through, and debate what we need, as you mention, we will just end up with a random jumble of categories which will not help users find things.

You may recall that I pointed out the difficulties involved when you first pressed for these categories, as there's not even agreement among scholars as to what exactly constitutes a "symphony", let alone the more complex types of compositions. If you were expecting someone else to produce a universal list of work-types, complete with definitions that everyone accepts, then I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed.

So what we're going to try is something new, relying on the musical knowledge and good sense of IMSLP users to choose an appropriate label for each work, combined with careful monitoring of the system, and forum discussions. We will start with a suggested list of sub-genres, which will quickly expand and adapt as more and more works are scrutinized and labelled. So the list will be ultimately determined by all IMSLP users, not just a few indivudals. An ambitious project, certainly, but definitely worthwhile!

[supertchan]

I haven't read all posts of this topic because of linguistic difficulty, but I don't agree the "Stage" genre.
I don't think Opera music and Ballet music come one genre.
Because Opera music is one of vocal music and Ballet music is one of orchestral music....aren't these more traditional, common and practical?

In detail, I don't think good the name of "Concertante" for Solo concerto.
Concertante has other meanings including Sinfonia concertante (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinfonia_concertante).
Marches is not very necessary.
I think we need "Concert band" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_band) (or wind band, symphonic band, symphonic winds, wind orchestra, wind symphony, wind ensemble, symphonic wind ensemble) music.

[steltz]

I think a "Concert Band" category makes more sense than the current "wind section" category which sounds like an incomplete part of something else.

However, "Stage works" is an accepted category. If you look in Grove's encyclopedia, there is a stage category, and then, if I remember correctly, the sub-category of opera or ballet is given after the title.

[supertchan]

Thanks for your reply.
Because I'm not English native, I don't see what "stage" means correctly.
I wonder the "stage" means "stage works" or "stage music", is it correct?
But currently there are no articles on English Wikipedia with these titles.
Is these idioms are very common as a definition for Operas, Ballets, and incidental music for all English as speakers?
And do you really need to collect in one genre these music?

[Carolus]

Grove's (and others, including come of the complete works series issued by major publishers) frequently merge operas, ballets, and incidental music for plays under the single category of "stage works". While the performing forces required can vary considerably, the unifying factor is that such works are presented on a stage with some sort of dramatic action or scenario (often a real stretch with some ballets). As steltz said, it is a widely accepted category, despite some of the inherent problems with fitting it to an organizational plan based largely around instrumental and vocal forces required.

[steltz]

There is also a certain logic to it in that if you were to ask a composer "have you ever written for the stage?" you would be asking if he has experience in writing music that has to fit with other "staging" issues and visual elements. It's a skill that not every composer has.

If you are playing in a theatre orchestra, you are playing both opera and ballet (though occasionally, the better-funded opera companies can have their own exclusive orchestra).

[supertchan]

Thanks for your replies,
"A dictionary of Composers and Their Works in Classical Music" published by Sanseido, One of the most common reference dictionary of classical music in Japan, uses same genres, I haven't realized it.
Just only because when I go to CD shop, CD's come into genres of "Symphonies", "Orchestral works", "Chamber music", "Instrumental music", "Operas", "Vocal music", and "Historical music", I thought this was more common.

[Operalala]

"Stage Works" is a super-category containing other categories, not the works themselves. The works are categorized "Opera", "Ballet" etc, which categories are then grouped under "Stage Works". Mixing all these works together in the super-category is not standard practice, and not helpful for users.