"Bach-Gesamtausgabe" digitalisiert von F. Steltner

kuzunoha · Post by **kuzunoha** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:12 am

I think most of J.S. Bach scores in IMSLP are splitted files of abovementioned CD-ROM's, which is sold at 165 EUR. still now. The reason why I think so is that all the missing pages in IMSLP are just the same as it: Everybody may make mistakes, but in various way, never in just the same way ten or twenty times.

But in every page, there are written "scanned by unknown".
I think it would be totally ｌegal that they upload public domain materials even if they were diditalized by someone who don't hope to do so. But if they know they were digitalized by F. Steltner, should they say "scanned by unknown"? Why they don't tell the truth?

Regards.

Post by **Carolus** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:09 am

There are lots of Bach-Gesellschaft scores circulating on the internet, for example on Ebay, among other places. I have no idea who originally scanned them. We also have no idea of who scanned the files uploaded to IMSLP, if they are the same as the ones circulating on Ebay, or those found at other sites. If you have compelling evidence that F. Steitner is indeed the original scanner, we of course would credit him as such. They are completely public domain, though.

kuzunoha · Post by **kuzunoha** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:19 am

Carolus wrote:If you have compelling evidence that F. Steitner is indeed the original scanner, we of course would credit him as such.

I can give enough evidence when the file in question includes missing or distorted pages.
But it would be easier that you ask some of contributors where these files come from.
I won't criticize; I merely want to know/make known the fact.

If the fact is so, I already have a list of missing pages within church cantata volumes;
this list also gives correct pages offered by F. Steltner himself.
http://www.kantate.info/BGA_defect.htm

Of course you can use these files freely because they are public domain,
but please credit "scanned by F. Steltner", you know.

Post by **Carolus** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:29 am

I'll take this issue up with Feldmahler and some of the other admins. You make a fairly good case that the scans here may be F. Steltner's. We are all for giving credit to the scanner wherever possible, as long as they are not living under the delusion that such scans are somehow copyrighted.

Post by **Peter** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:53 am

Kuzunoha, can't you give any hard evidence? I have a copy with the same missing pages too, does that make me to be credited?

didi1 · Post by **didi1** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:21 am

kuzunoha wrote:
Carolus wrote:If you have compelling evidence that F. Steitner is indeed the original scanner, we of course would credit him as such.
I can give enough evidence when the file in question includes missing or distorted pages.
But it would be easier that you ask some of contributors where these files come from.
I won't criticize; I merely want to know/make known the fact.

If the fact is so, I already have a list of missing pages within church cantata volumes;
this list also gives correct pages offered by F. Steltner himself.
http://www.kantate.info/BGA_defect.htm

Of course you can use these files freely because they are public domain,
but please credit "scanned by F. Steltner", you know.

Hi folks

the complete scores can be downloaded here:
http://emc.elte.hu/~pinter/BGA.html

BR // Didi

kuzunoha · Post by **kuzunoha** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:33 am

I don't say it is the evidence that I have corrected pages. I myself place them in my site for some years since I received it from F. Steltner as a revised version. So it is no wonder if anybody has the copy of it, or another copy from another route. Or do you have original CD-ROM?

Anyway, as to BGA score, all the missing pages in IMSLP correspond with CD-ROM which I purchased (1st version), not only missing pages but also wrong pages as substitutes. Isn't it enough evidence?

kuzunoha · Post by **kuzunoha** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:00 pm

didi1 wrote:
the complete scores can be downloaded here:
http://emc.elte.hu/~pinter/BGA.html

BR // Didi

Didi, you don't understand the point at issue: "the complete scores" you have shown also include just the same missing / wrong pages.

Post by **imslp** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:41 pm

I agree with Carolus and Peter in that the main problem is not whether the scanner should be credited, but rather if the scanner can be proved to be that person. There are, in fact, several people who sell complete CD collections of that scan of the BGA (all of them with the same set of missing pages), hence the problem.

However, if the BGA corrections are scanned in the same style as the original files, and F. Steltner issued them, that may be good (even if not conclusive) proof as I don't think the corrections are widely circulated on the internet. But because this is a major change, I will let people discuss this a bit more (I'm especially interested in where people have bought this collection; if there is a website, please post a link).

Kuzunoha: Insofar as we are concerned, there is not much difference between "Scanned by Unknown" or "Scanned by F. Steltner"; in fact, we would prefer the latter just because it gives more info. Therefore, the omission is in no way intentional, and is because we really do not know the scanner (most of us got the scans off the internet ourselves). In fact, before you told us about it, we had no idea there was someone claiming to be the scanner. However, because this would be a huge and time-consuming change, we are being careful by investigating this matter thoroughly.

However, I thank you for hosting the corrections; I'd be very nice if you or someone else could submit these to IMSLP, as there has been many complaints about these missing pages.

kuzunoha · Post by **kuzunoha** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:36 am

imslp wrote:(snip) But because this is a major change, I will let people discuss this a bit more (I'm especially interested in where people have bought this collection; if there is a website, please post a link).
(snip)

However, I thank you for hosting the corrections; I'd be very nice if you or someone else could submit these to IMSLP, as there has been many complaints about these missing pages.

I placed a page concerning the CD-ROM for your reference.

http://www.kantate.info/steltner/steltner_cdrom.htm

As to corrected files, I stopped providing them for a while.
I will start it again when I agree your answer.

emeraldimp · Post by **emeraldimp** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:28 am

kuzunoha wrote:As to corrected files, I stopped providing them for a while.
I will start it again when I agree your answer.

...Or we could stop discussing it and do nothing, which is what this makes me want to do.

Post by **imslp** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:06 am

There there people... lets not fight

The evidence does seem convincing enough, and I would endorse the idea of having "F. Steltner" as the scanner. However, since IMSLP is a wiki, I'll leave actually changing the pages to people who are interested to see this change. And perhaps this can be noted on the BGA project page first.

Vivaldi · Post by **Vivaldi** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:51 am

Feldmahler, is this "scanned by unknown" problem just the tip of the iceberg? IMSLP has scores where the "scanned by" name is the name of the website the scores were taken from. Examples are bh2000.net and the Variations music score project site. I would agree that these names are listed instead of the actual person scanning it because we just don't know who scanned it. If there are people out there willing to disclose this information, I'm sure you and IMSLP would have no hesitation to credit them as the scanners.

Post by **Peter** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:14 am

There are to my knowledge two main versions circulating, only differing in compression. Anyone who has access to this widely dispersed BGA scan (websites, usenet, p2p) with the same missing pages and anyone who went to a library and scanned these missing pages can claim credit for the scan of the BGA. I don't think there is any compelling evidence.

Kuzunoha , as you had received scores from this person, and you are not the scanner, I think it's best to provide us the necessary information to let us contact him. Why doesn't this person claim credit himself?

kuzunoha · Post by **kuzunoha** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Peter wrote:Kuzunoha , as you had received scores from this person, and you are not the scanner, I think it's best to provide us the necessary information to let us contact him. Why doesn't this person claim credit himself?

Yes, I will do so. Please talk with her directly.
(Why I don't say "him", please look at the following page.)

http://www.kantate.info/steltner/steltner_cdrom.htm

I beg you all to consider what a painstaking task it was to scan all the 16,800 pages of BGA, though it is quite easy to copy and split the files and upload them to the net.

I have been forgetting to show the site where we can buy the CD-ROM.
http://www.bachwerke.de/