Works by more than one composer

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Davydov
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Works by more than one composer

Post by Davydov »

A recent discussion on my talk page touched on the best way to handle works where two or more people are involved, and I (foolishly) offered to put together a few thoughts on the subject. So here goes...

Firstly, let's look at some of the situations being talked about:
  • Collaborative Works — written by different authors acting together (e.g. 4_Improvisations, by Taneyev, Rachmaninoff, Arensky and Glazunov);
  • Interopolations — additional music written by one composer which was intended to be inserted into an existing work by another composer (e.g. Carl Binder's Overture to Offenbach's Orpheus in the Underworld;
  • Completions — works which were left unfinished by their composer, and which were completed posthumously by another (e.g. many of Mussorgsky's compositions.
  • Editorial works — works by one composer that were edited for publication by another (the most common category).
  • Arrangements and Transcriptions — versions of works by one composer made later by another, such as piano reductions, vocal scores, or rescoring for different instruments (again, there are many such examples).
  • Potpourris, Fantasias, Variations — works by one composer that were based on themes by another, and which don't preserve the form of the earlier work. The majority of Renaud de Vilbac's output would fall into this category, as would works such as Benjamin Britten's ''Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra'' (after themes by Purcell), which isn't yet P.D.
  • Translations — books or vocal librettos rendered into one language from another.
  • Writings — books or articles by one person about the life or works of another composer.
At the moment the structure of IMSLP only allows one composer to be directly identified with any particular work, so that in the first of the previous examples 4 Improvisations (Taneyev, Sergei) appears in the category "Taneyev, Sergei" by default. However it is possible to place the work page in more than one composer category, as has been done in this case by cross-references to Rachmaninoff, Arensky and Glazunov's work pages. So each of the last three composer's category pages shows 4 Improvisations (Taneyev, Sergei) amongst all the other works by their respective authors. While this method of adding categories is simple to do, if taken to extremes it could become confusing from the user's point of view.

Aside from collaborative works (which are relatively few), the rest of the arrangements, etc., are currently being dealt with in two different ways:
  • they are all placed on the page for the original composer
  • they are placed on the page for the second composer, with cross-references from the pages for the original work
  • the files are listed under both composers' pages
Unfortunately there are disadvantages to both methods, mainly:
  • nothing appears on the second composer's page to indicate their contribution to a work by another composer
  • cross-references between work pages can appear untidy, and are particularly difficult to use in the case of editors and translators (who may not qualify to have their own pages in the "composer category".
  • having the same file listed twice in different locations makes it difficult to keep track if changes are made to the original file or its descriptions, and is generally considered to be bad programming practice.
So how could we improve this unsatisfactory situation? The possible options include:
  • creating new pages such as "List of arrangements by Johannes Brahms" or "List of editorial works by Franz Liszr", and linking these to the relevant composer's homepage under the "See also" heading. In fact the Liszt example already exists — see http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Liszt%2C_Franz
  • creating sub-categories along the lines of "Arrangements by xxxx" and "Editorial works by xxxx", which would then automatically appear in a separate section of the composer page (above the main listing). The sub-categories for the second composer would have to be added to the work page for the first, with new sub-category pages created. So this could become a little complex, but it is probably workable.
  • creating new composer categories for collaborative works, e.g. 4 Improvisations (Taneyev, Sergei/Rachmaninoff, Sergei/Arensky, Anton/Glazunov, Alexander). This would only work effectively in a limited number of situations, and even then it could prove a little unwieldy.
  • different categories could be created for composers, editors, arrangers, translators, etc., using different layouts and colour schemes to show the difference. But some provision would have to be made for one person falling into multiple categories.
  • the layout of the current composer pages could be changed to produce separate lists of works composed by them, works arranged by them, works edited by them, and so on. This is likely to require more complex programming than the other options mentioned so far.
If you have any thoughts on the above options—and particularly if you have a possible solution of your own—then you're welcome to add your comments below.
Melodia
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Re: Works by more than one composer

Post by Melodia »

Some of the problem is sometimes straight transcriptions (especially in Liszt's case, as well as Villa-Lobos who'll be arriving here next year) will get their own catalog number shuffled in among the original works. In fact, I've seen one or two Liszt transcriptions that have a page both at the original composer and under Liszt.

Part of the problem is the way the IMSLP is set up. I think the fact there's a huge box for each PDF instead of a simple link often hinders things for such cases, especially in say collaborative works where a nice list of each singular piece, with a wikilink for the others...
vinteuil
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Re: Works by more than one composer

Post by vinteuil »

Which isn't actually so bad, as they are catalogued.
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Carolus
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Re: Works by more than one composer

Post by Carolus »

There is also the issue of compilations or collections, which are often often assembled and arranged or edited long after the original works were created. For example Konstantin von Sternberg's series issued by Ditson entitled Modern Russian Piano Music. I've seen some library listings where the collection itself is listed under Sternberg's name.
Melodia
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Re: Works by more than one composer

Post by Melodia »

Carolus wrote:There is also the issue of compilations or collections, which are often often assembled and arranged or edited long after the original works were created. For example Konstantin von Sternberg's series issued by Ditson entitled Modern Russian Piano Music. I've seen some library listings where the collection itself is listed under Sternberg's name.
Yeah but in those case one could easily just break them up into individual pieces.
Generoso
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Re: Works by more than one composer

Post by Generoso »

Where for instance would I post a work (a Duo for Violin and Cello) where the Cello part was written by Adrien-François Servais and the Violin part was written by Henri Vieuxtemps?

Would it be under Servais or under Vieuxtemps?

The same would be the case for one piece already uploaded:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Grand_Duo_de_Conc ... rançois%29


The cello part was written by Servais and the Violin part was written by Hubert Leonard. Is it right to put it under Servais? But shouldn't it also be under Leonard?

Just a thought?
Peter
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Re: Works by more than one composer

Post by Peter »

Melodia wrote:Some of the problem is sometimes straight transcriptions (especially in Liszt's case, as well as Villa-Lobos who'll be arriving here next year) will get their own catalog number shuffled in among the original works. In fact, I've seen one or two Liszt transcriptions that have a page both at the original composer and under Liszt.
We deliberately tried to make an exception for Liszt and make separate work pages, as his transcriptional output was gigantic and indeed has catalog numbers for it. I think Funper did great job in this aspect.


Compilations indeed should be split as per current guidelines, but there can be an interesting originality in the collection that makes it worth of presenting it on IMSLP as a whole too. Custom "edition" pages like the current existing, linking to the work pages that make part of it, could be created for this.
Boccaccio
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Re: Works by more than one composer

Post by Boccaccio »

As you might have noticed, I recently uploaded some old madrigal printings. Now I also have some collection of madrigals etc. which I would like to upload. Unfortunately, It is not easy to split this up into seperate works for each composer for several reasons. First, works start at the same page where the other piece ends, giving rise to overlappings. Second, the sources are in general parts and not full scores, so it would be a real pain to take everything apart and then recollect the different pieces (besides, this would in many cases look unsatisfactory, due to point one mentioned above).
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